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Hayley: I’m also really impressed with the song “World on Fire.” I think it’s in such stark contrast to other songs that might be vaguely political or a lamentation on humanity and how divided everyone feels.

I was really struggling with that while we were writing our record. I didn’t really feel like there needed to be another protest song, necessarily. I think there’s other people that probably do it better than me. I felt like reading the lyrics and listening to the song, you did a really good job of saying how you feel about it and also just observing from a place of like, “This is such shit.” Like, where we’re at is so sad.

Dolly: It is. It’s crazy. And you feel helpless. I’m not political; as I said before, I don’t like controversy. I try to just speak my heart, speak my truth, speak my mind, and do it as gentle as I can. But well, my best weapon and my best tool is my writing.

I had finished the rock album, and I had done 30 songs, not meaning to do it. I kept recording, and so one day Kent Wells – who produced the album and did a great job, by the way – he said, “Dolly, you gotta stop. You can’t record every damn rock ‘n’ roll song that’s ever been out.” And so I said, “Okay, we’re done.”

So I go home that very night, and I’m in bed. I woke up in the wee hours, like I had a force that just pulled me out. And I thought, “Why am I so wide awake right now?” I just felt like I needed to be doing something, I didn’t know what. But I went to the kitchen and made my coffee – poured my cup of ambition, if you will.

Hayley: Yes!

Dolly: And all of a sudden, that song just started coming to me. And I thought, “Now, I’m supposed to write this song.” So, I called Kent the next morning and I said, “I know we’re supposed to be done, but I’ve got one more we’ve got to do.” And he said, “Oh, we can’t call a session for one song.” I said, “Yes, we can. Let me come down and sing it to you.” And [I did, and] he said, “Yes, we can.”

I think it’s one of the most powerful things on the record. Everybody said, “Dolly’s getting political,” because I said, “Don’t get me started on politics. How are we to live in a world like this? Greedy politicians, present and past, wouldn’t know the truth if it bit ’em in their” astronomical egos, so to speak.

But I could have just said, “Leaders of the world, present and past, you better make a change and you better do it fast.” That’s what I was trying to say. We got to really get together or we’re just gonna just go to hell or heaven in a handbasket.

Hayley: Yeah, I know. The two party system doesn’t seem to be serving anyone.

Dolly: It’s not about just a party. It ain’t all just about the politics; it’s the way people are with their hate and love and division. But politics has not helped it any.

Hayley: No. I mean, when the pandemic happened, in a way I was more emboldened to be more vocal about the things that I felt, but I also felt very paralyzed too, because I knew that even if I said everything that I felt, which I have done on Instagram or Twitter, it doesn’t do much. It might make a headline or clickbait for a week or two and then, you know, someone on Fox News hates me for a month.

But it doesn’t do much in the way of action and really making a difference. And that’s so frustrating for me because I want to stand by my own convictions and I want to try and make a difference. But I mostly just want people to feel loved and welcome, especially at a show.

I think it’s a testament to the years that you’ve been working really hard to stand by your convictions that you’ve also found a way to make people feel welcome. I think that that does more in the way of potentially inviting change, inviting conversation. I’m not quite as good at staying out of controversy. I get this sort of righteous rage, and I feel like in that moment, words might do something.

How do I foster that?

Dolly: Well, there’s a whole lot of reasons for me being the way that I am. First of all, I grew up in a family of 12 kids. I got six brothers and I got my five sisters. So, I’ve had every personality around me. And I’ve often said I’ve got some of everybody in my own immediate family, and in my family of employees. I’ve got gays, I’ve got lesbians, I’ve got trans, I’ve got alcoholics, I’ve got drug addicts. I’ve got some of everybody in my own family, so I naturally love them, accept them.

And I also have a spiritual background and think that it’s not my place to judge. I’m not God. There is a God piece in all of us, and I try to find that in everybody – even the worst people, there’s something good in there. Maybe they didn’t get a chance to be it. I understand that people that hate so much usually are the people that have never been loved enough.

Hayley: Totally. Of course.

Dolly: Or people that feel like they have to make a stand about something, whether it’s right or wrong, they want to feel strong enough to be able to stand for something. But also you can’t just get into things with other people just to be a follower.

In my own self, I just try to love people. I try to find the God light in everybody, and I try to let mine shine extra hard when I run up against that. But I have to be careful what I say. You know, whether it’s good or bad or indifferent, I’m a pretty honest, open person. I can tell you where to put it if I don’t like where you got it. That’s when I say I often use my temper, but I seldom lose it.

Hayley: Oh! I needed to hear that today. Okay. That was my church.

Dolly: Well, you take that one. You can have it.

Hayley: Okay, I’m going to tattoo that on me.

Dolly: Like they say, there’s never an excuse to be rude, but sometimes there’s a reason. I’m 77 now and I’ve been in this business for 60-plus years. I’ve seen a lot, been through a lot, but I’ve still maintained. I’ve just tried to be myself. I was me, and me had to be what I drew from.

Hayley: Yeah, that’s also grace too.